Bringing Design to the Masses with Mike Chapman

This week on the PRISM podcast, Dan Harden and Mike Chapman reveal the process of creating the By Design TV series for a mainstream audience. Chapman also discusses expanding the popular California show into America by Design where Harden will judge the nation’s best innovations. Episode TranscriptDan Harden 0:04Hello, and welcome to PRISM. PRISM is a design oriented podcast hosted by me Dan Harden. Like a glass prism that reveals the color hidden inside white light, this podcast will reveal the inside story behind innovation, especially the people that make it happen. My aim is to uncover each guest’s unique point of view, their insights, their methods, or their own secret motivator, perhaps, that fuels their creative genius.Dan Harden 0:32I am speaking with my friend Mike Chapman. Mike is the executive producer of the multi TV series by design, and director of MWC. Mike has over 30 years of experience in the TV industry as a director and producer. He has a long history of creating programming for a variety of markets, especially around Australia, New Zealand, and more recently now in the United States. Some of Mike’s credits include being a series producer and executive producer on Big Brother, series one through 10, Getaway, Holiday, Australia’s Most Amazing Homes and Passionate Players. He manages a production team from his home in Melbourne, and now is his pad in New York City.Dan Harden 1:14Mike, thanks so much for coming on. And where are you actually now in the world?Mike Chapman 1:20Oh, boy, what a first question. I’ll try and give the simple answer. I was coming back from Copenhagen, where we were doing some filming we have in our show, we’ll get into that, I guess that international spotlights so we were doing some design stories in Copenhagen and I had a connection in Paris, and then they wouldn’t let me on the plane. I was flying back to New York. And that’s where I learned that on an Australian passport because you might have noticed, I talk funny. I’m an Australian. And they won’t they won’t let me back into the US unless I go via, there’s like a workaround where you can go to Mexico for two weeks.Dan Harden 2:10So you’re in Cancun, I’m guessing.Mike Chapman 2:13Yeah, on a little island off the off the coast of Cancun. The translation is Lady Island. Probably some of your listeners might know of it. It’s a It’s a lovely little place. A population of 12,000. And it’s just a lot of Americans here, actually. And it’s really, if I if I’ve got to be quarantined somewhere, you’re right. It’s, it’s not so bad.Dan Harden 2:39It’s not bad. It’s like 10 o’clock in the morning, and I now see that you have a margarita in front of you. So yeah, thank you so much for doing this because I guess you’re on vacation.Mike Chapman 2:51Well, kinda.Dan Harden 2:53So Mike, so one is it’s it’s awesome. You’re doing these projects in the United States of America by design. We did California by Design, New York by Design. I was I was a part of this. And it’s been a real fun experience for me to working with you, I must say. But I think for our listeners, you know, I want to really just kind of figure out especially like, as a lifestyle documentarian in the work that you’re doing in Australia. What led you into this world of design and telling stories about design? I know this started in Australia for you. Because Yeah, Australia by design, which ran for three years, right?Mike Chapman 3:33Yeah, it’s still going. Is it five years actually, we started five years ago, in 2016, was series one, on on channel 10 in Australia, which is kind of like the CBS, if you will of Australia, owned by CBS, in fact. And, yes. It’s just the, the format has really surprised us actually. The idea of the show is that we’re talking about design, but it’s an accessible format. Which, if you if you want to be on Channel 10, or if you want to be on CBS, like we are in America, and you want to talk design, it’s got to be an accessible format. It’s got to have interest levels other than what you and I would like, I mean, I’d be quite happy to just do pure stories on design, and I’m sure you would watch them as one story. But a CBS audience or a channel 10 audience ain’t gonna do that because both the Australian market and the American market we’re quite immature with our design tastes, I have to say. I don’t mind talking like that. You’re an American, and I’m an Australian. I think we could talk about our own places. Compared to say, Italy, or where I just was in Denmark, where the guy digging up the road, kind of has a has a much greater understanding of design and where it fits into our world.Dan Harden 5:15Yeah. Alright, so, but when you were doing this on Australia, you started out on this trip, what led you in that? Like, why? Because you had other lifestyle projects. You were, I mean, the list of your credits that you were across so many different fields. But what led you into design? Were you invited by a team to talk about design and to elevate this to to television and the public?Mike Chapman 5:37Yeah, I was actually making one of those. HGTV style, ‘reno’ shows at the time, it was it was a show called Love Shack. I didn’t call you for that one Dan. But it was basically renovating holiday homes, that very HGTV style, it wasn’t on HGTV, but it’s the best way of describing it. Full of Jeopardy, had a couple of people that were famous for being just famous, basically, who were the front people and we renovated this place. So the architect on that show, is a bit of a character. He actually sat me down when on set one day, we were just sharing a drink in a break. He said, you know, you could do a show that’s kind of not highbrow design, like you might find on on Netflix. And the kind of show that Dan Harlan might seek out with a, you know, glass of expensive wine in hand, instead, and yet not make a show, like we’re on the set of at the moment on Love Shack, you know, mate. I think there’s something in between. And that got me thinking, you know, because design doesn’t have to be, you know, dished up to an Australian or American audience in such a moronic way, you know. Like, oh, wow, let’s, let’s love the cushions, and let’s distract them and send them off and, over a weekend, we’ll change their place. And they’ll come back and oh, well, there’ll be the big reveal. I mean, for goodness sake, I mean, that has its place, but it’s just not a design show, they kind of call them design shows, which is ridiculous.Mike Chapman 7:36I guess I like to think we’re making something that’s a proper Design Show, you know, a show that actually talks about what design is what its impact is on on the world around us. And yet not, you know, we’re, we have a spoonful of sugar, with the medicine that we deliver. It’s still light, it’s still still got some Jeopardy involved in it, there’s a judging process, you know, all those things are kind of 101 audience retention devices. And so we still have that in the show. But we want to bring across, we want to bring along with us, the design community, you know, to make this something special, and make a difference in people’s understanding of design.Dan Harden 8:27I do like how you bring in professionals to either present stories, and certainly to judge them. And that’s how we met. Because I think in your third season, you invited me down to be like a guest judge. But I think for the listeners, let’s describe your format. So what you do, you will select different stories from around, like when you were starting out in Australia, different manufacturers of products, like RODE microphones, for example. And there would be one or two products that you would then have a presenter go and interview them, like how did this come to be? And what what was the source of your innovation? What were your insights that led to even thinking about a new product like this? And then what did you go through, the trials and travails about getting something to market and then you reveal what the what the innovation is all about. So you’re interviewing the individual creators, and the presenter is pulling out this information. And then there are maybe per season, maybe 30 or 40 of these stories that are then presented in front of a team of professional designers that then talk about evaluate, analyze, and then finally rank to select a, like a winning product out of those 30 or 40.Mike Chapman 9:53Yeah, that’s right.Dan Harden 9:56Did you find it that format was working really well in Australia? And I remember distinctly having a discussion with you where I was talking to you about like, why don’t you do this in the United States. The market is so big here, there’s so many stories. That has to be 10 times larger than Australia. I didn’t say 10 times better, I said 10 times larger than Australia. So because what I saw that one year that I did, that was like three years ago, was an extraordinary level of design happening in Australia, all over Australia, all the way over to Perth. And around the country. There were really interesting innovations that in areas that I hadn’t really given a ton of thought. Uou know, there was like a shark wall that was placed, you know, 100 yards out from a beach to prevent shark attacks, which apparently are common in parts of Australia. And we’ve just never seen something like that. In the design, we’re getting here in the United States. We always have this, this, put another shrimp on that barbie thing. But sure enough, there were like two barbecues that were being reviewed in Australia, there was that little firestarter thing. And I was like, well, you guys don’t see this in United States. So what made you think that this format would work in the United States? And and why did you come here to do this?Mike Chapman 11:21Yeah. I think as it’s turned out, I think it’s more of an American idea than an Australian one. It’s, you know, in the past couple of years of starting it in America, it’s it’s really taken off. So yes, you came as a guest judge, we flew you to Sydney. And that was great on one of our series there. And I do remember that conversation, yes, with you, where you’re saying why why the hell do you not doing this in America? And you were, you weren’t the first person to say that to me, but you were one of the stronger influences, no doubt about it. Because you were, you know, right from, you’re the real deal. You know, you’re a designer in Silicon Valley, saying that, we’ve just flown you out, bang, and that’s your reaction. It’s like, how much more evidence do I need? And with some of the other formats, I had done that such as Love Shack and so on, I didn’t feel that they were worthy of trying to launch in America. But this one I did. I just thought we were onto something.Dan Harden 12:37Yeah, you know, I don’t watch very much television in the United States. But when you do turn on television in the United States, you see, there’s just so much mediocrity. And when I see, you know, these so called judging formats, and they might be judging something, you know, it’s always around food, right. And there’s a ton of creativity and food and, you know, everybody likes food, it’s a kind of a common denominator for all of us, right? So it works. But, I mean, I find the creative process, just the most exciting thing ever, right? Like, to me, there’s really nothing that can be quite as exciting. Especially, you know, when you’re doing this every day, if you still feel that palpable sense of excitement, you know, there’s something very real there. And, and yet, the public doesn’t really have an eye into this world. Unless you’re in this world of design or or if you’re an, you know, an interior designer, a fashion designer, an experimental engineer, then you have this sense of what creativity is all about. But there aren’t enough of these shows that elevate or expose this creative process. And that’s why I was thought it was it had the potential of being popular subject matter on mainstream television, if told, right. And of course, it’s all about the story. And because people don’t want it, the general public doesn’t really want to hear about the little design details or problems that we go through or some of the deep analysis that’s required when you’re doing, you know, hardcore design and engineering. And I think you have a special way of getting at the essence of what an innovation is about, especially as it relates to an individual and their individual, very specific problem. And so the kind of the encapsulating the essence of what an innovation is offering to somebody really is, I noticed when I’m working with you, either as a presenter or a judge, you’ve really tried to get to that essence, like what is this innovation really trying to do? And sometimes it’s hard, I must say, as a designer to be able to step out of my way of thinking about a design problem. And to get it down to the basics, and you, you’re good at like, just this distilling process just like what really what is it really? Like don’t talk or think like a designer just, you know, give it to me the way that maybe a consumer sees it.Mike Chapman 15:23I know. I think any design problem is a great start to a story. It’s got a beginning, which is the problem. And then there’s the whole working through it. And then there’s the solution. So you know, it’s got a beginning, a middle and an end. It’s just perfect for storytelling.Dan Harden 15:45Speaking of which, with these, these are all like micro stories, right? You take a project that may have lasted one or two years, and you try to tell this story in like, three, four minutes, three to four minutes, per story. I thought that was an absurd idea when I first started talking to you about this, and even reviewing some of these in Australia, but somehow you do get it down to like, Okay, I get it. You don’t get you don’t get the depth the struggle of of what really had to happen, you’ll need it, you know, a season a complete season to go through a real product development, right?Mike Chapman 16:24But then who’s gonna watch that? A handful of people like Dan Harden will love it.Dan Harden 16:29I know, when you were directing some of these pieces before I’ve witnessed this, and how you work. You’re not shy about jumping in and saying, I don’t care about that detail, skip it all together. I just don’t care. And that rattles some designers because it because that may be the thing that they care the most about. And yet, yes, you know, it’s the behind the scenes of product design and development that that we all want to talk about. And yet, you have to make that ultimate decision about whether or not somebody is going to be interested in that sometimes you do. You let a really cool little detail through that just really became kind of the linchpin of what made it great. And that’s sometimes hard to find, it’s sometimes even hard to get out of somebody, it’s hard to get it out of the creator even because they’ve been living it. When you’re living with a design problem for a long period of time, sometimes one or two years, you forget what inspired you two years prior, you forget what really made you just jump out of your skin when you made a sketch. And it’s like, oh, my God, there it is.Mike Chapman 17:39Yeah, no. And we’re always trying to find that moment. That is one of our key questions, isn’t it? What was the a-ha moment? You know, and then they maybe dribble along. It’s like, hang on? Wait, that’s not a moment. You’ve just tried to describe a year. What was the a-ha moment? What was that moment, the difference? And often, that’s a really good question to ask them because it forces them to think back in, okay. This guy wants a Hollywood answer. And then it’s distilled.Dan Harden 18:12You had this idea to come to the United States to bring this format to the US. You chose California. And you call it California by Design instead of Australia by Design. Why California? And what was your experience? And how was that experience different than working with Australian designers?Mike Chapman 18:36Like any environment, it very much influences people and I think Californians just have a way about them that’s, that’s quite similar, the most similar of the Americans to Australians. So I think when we thought, okay, where are we gonna go first in America? I think it was all those things that and also the fact that I met you and was talking to you, and you’re from California as well. It seemed like a great place to start. Not to mention real Center for Design in America, as well.Dan Harden 19:14If not, maybe the world I don’t I don’t really know if too many places like the Silicon Valley, especially Northern California, where so much is being produced. There’s so much creativity. I mean, it’s certainly rivals New York or Milan or Tokyo and other centers of design for sure. After doing a season in California, what was your impression?Mike Chapman 19:41Yeah, just so exciting, so much activity. I loved how the design community just embraced us. We’d done our research and we felt that we were special. You know, that we were doing something a niche that others weren’t quite hitting. But it was confirmed well and truly by the design community, who I mean, you guys almost behave like a, like a cause, like a cause that needs to be better known in many ways. You know, in another life back in the 1800s, I was CEO of a charity for a while. And it reminded me a little bit out of that time, you know, of being a cause. Designers and the design community want to be more known, they feel they’ve got a good story to tell. And if only it could be told the world would be better, you might connect to some of that thinking. Yes. Yeah. And I identified that as well, I think so. So it wasn’t that surprising, but it was delightful that we were so embraced by big shots like you and other designers, you know, who really could see what we were trying to do and wanted to help us.Dan Harden 21:09I think we’ve all been speaking on behalf of the design industry, you know, we get we are perhaps like an egotistical bunch. But you know, we are very proud of what we do. And, and yet, I think like a lot of creators and artists, I think, industrial designers, and maybe even graphic designers to a certain extent, and certainly UX designers, we all feel like we do have a really exciting story to tell. And yet there are just so few avenues to tell it. I mean, yeah, you can write blogs, and you can try to tell your stories, there’s magazines and so forth. But for the most part, mainstream media has ignored design. To this day, if you tell someone Oh, I’m an industrial designers, some people’s they’ll say, Well, does it, What does that mean to design factories? Or what exactly do you do? Once you explain that almost every material good around them that is man made has some, obviously some design and engineering thought. And once people realize, Oh, my gosh, you mean people actually do that, that you guys invent these things and make them look good and work well and make them digestible by me, the consumer? They’re fascinated. And yet, there have just been so few opportunities for designers to tell their story. So it doesn’t surprise me that by the time you came here, that there was such open arms in our community for you, and to have this platform to tell these wonderful stories.Mike Chapman 22:41You have the skills, the intelligence, the process, the way of thinking to change the world. So I love my new friends. You know, because as a TV producer, I’ve actually realized that, you know, I’m a designer as well. I call it producing, but it’s very much the same. How you run the show, everything down to how you fund it, how you make it, everything impacts on everything, you know. You if you do something here, that means this is going to pop up there, so you got to consider that. So it’s the same.Dan Harden 23:17Yeah, it is the same. I mean, design, in the broadest sense of the word. It is. It’s imagining something different, a change, and then strategizing a plan on how to make that change happen. That’s all design really is. And then you want that change to be usually you want that change to be for a better result, a good, some, you know, smarts behind it, sustainability, some betterment of some kind that brings delight, joy, support, enablement to that end user. And, indeed, that’s what you’re doing when you are crafting a story, whether it’s TV episodes, or a new product solution, or a new digital interface. That’s that’s what you’re doing.Mike Chapman 24:08We want to tell these great stories that need to be told and deserve to be told. And but but but but BUT we have to do it in a format that allows us to be on CBS in front of a broad audience. My argument is, that’s where the most good can be done. It’s, of course, it’s totally valid to have conferences and designers talking to designers about how they can do things, of course, of course, but I think there’s a bigger job to be done in just rising the tide a little bit on the design conversation with the general population. And this is something that’s gone on for generations in Italy, and in Denmark.Dan Harden 24:56It’s part of their culture.Mike Chapman 24:57Yeah. Do you agree with me that Americans And you’re probably scared to say about Australians, but let’s stick with Americans that you know that we kind of have a or you guys, and Australians have an immature taste when it comes to design.Dan Harden 25:15You know, nowadays, I’m not sure if I would completely agree with that. I think were impatient, and we consume a lot. I would love to see this change. The understanding and the awareness of design has improved dramatically in the last 20 years, thanks to companies like Apple and Nike, just about every company now that takes design so seriously, that it’s part of their corporate strategy, almost every company now employs some level of design or design thinking at least. And it’s resulted in, generally speaking in this country, a much, much higher level of design than when I was starting out as a young designer. And it’s taken longer than I would have hoped.Dan Harden 26:04]But I’ll tell you today, now, especially, I mean, our moment has arrived, everything that we wanted all the dreams that we aspire to, as designers, it’s happening in this country, there are very few limitations for designers, now. We are at the table with the CEO, the CTO, the CEO, we’re there. And even as a design consultant, I mean, we are brought right into the C suite, to advise direct, strategize and come up with new ideas for where a company should go. So I think the awareness is there, I think, of course, we need generally more awareness in the public. And you know, why? I think when people have a higher awareness of just generally about what good design is, I think they’re smarter about their consumption patterns, they might realize, well, do I really need this? Am I buying this for the right reason? Is itMike Chapman 27:04Like is it going to end up in landfill in a couple of years?Dan Harden 27:08Yeah. And also, just, I think it makes when you have a higher awareness about what design is, and what good and bad design are, it allows you to make just better choices that then ultimately do turn around when you’re when you’re consuming a product or an experience, whether it’s digital or more material based. For it to provide that advantage, those benefits, you first have to be aware that the benefits are being presented to you. And then as you consume them that the final promise, the delivery of something good is, is offered to you. But without the awareness that you don’t even know what’s happening, you then happening, then you end up with a garage full of crap after 20 years of products that you really use once or twice. And that’s why I think for me being involved in the show and bringing design to the masses like this, even if it’s not that deep, you know, we don’t end this show, we don’t go into the depths of what we face as designers and engineers and inventors.Dan Harden 28:16Just having a part of the American narrative is helping a broader cause. And that broader cause being smarter about the things that you surround yourself with, smarter about the things that you consume, being just generally, more consciously aware of why you’re making certain decisions. And this only helps you with every aspect of your life. Even non design related, when you realize that there are people behind what is being presented to you, whether it’s an advertisement or a product, if you know a little bit about what you’re looking at, you know a little bit about design it, it makes you more informed, more educated, and it makes you a better consumer, quite frankly. So I think that’s a real benefit of your show. And I think that’s why so many designers are coming forward and saying Hey, Mike, you know, I want to be a part of this. It’s not, it’s not to the old notion of like, Oh, I want to get on television. I don’t. For me, it was never that it’s more about telling this wonderful story of design to people that really don’t know much about it.Dan Harden 29:38In television. I’m really curious, because when I went to Australia, and I saw your show down there, I thought everything is so nice. Everybody’s being nice to one another. And in American television, there’s always tension, you know, even Shark Tank, they’re always looking for this moment where they discovered that these little companies aren’t worth worth shit and, you know, and yet they’re trying to get a couple $100,000 out of them. But American TV always wants the tension. They want something outrageous. They want the weirdo that’s being exposed, you know? So how does your kind of filming philosophy work in America? Because it is very nice. I mean, you have some sponsors and you, you have to you are you present stories in a manner where it’s kind of all tidy and buttoned up. But is it enough juice for Americans?What do you find?Mike Chapman 30:33It seems to be. Here we are. And I guess CBS would be a good authority on this topic. They love the show. And so after doing California and after producing the New York version of the show, our plans have leapt forward. What we were expecting to do was a was a series two of California by Design, a series two of New York by Design. Maybe add Chicago next. That was going to be our pathway. But having talked with CBS is like no, dammit. More is more, which is very American. Let’s just jump straight to America by design.Mike Chapman 31:20We have plans by the way to celebrate California again and New York and to add Chicago and Florida is an interesting area. So is Texas, goodness me, Austin. I’ve learned a lot about Austin and what’s going on there. So there’s other regional shows that we will get to but at the moment, what’s in our faces, eight markets around America, America by Design, straight away. And now we’re going into series two, straight away of America by Design as well.Dan Harden 31:56So I think this particular podcast will be running during this season. So let’s talk briefly about about what we just saw. Like I was a judge this year. And I saw Oh, no, we reviewed how many were there? 30, 38, 40? Something like that? It was pretty big selection.Mike Chapman 32:14Yeah. Just over 30 projects, I think 31Dan Harden 32:19Okay, so what were what were some of your interesting moments throughout those did you have favorite? Do you have either a favorite product a favorite story? Any funny little annectodotes?Mike Chapman 32:32I guess they’re all my children. So I’m not allowed to have favorites. But between you and I Dan, I really love that ziptop for example. I love the story behind it. The woman Rebecca. They’re in Austin.Dan Harden 32:54I love that one too. And yeah, you’re right. She is just such an innovator.Mike Chapman 33:01Exactly. Everything that I love about design and throwing yourself behind, you know, believing in what you’re doing. And she’s like a serial entrepreneur. She’s got a great husband, who’s really got behind her as well, because you know, and she’s the first to say he’s my, my partner in all this, I couldn’t have done it without him. Even though it’s totally her project, but but he’s an amazing support. I just love every little piece of that story. And then the product ziptop product, just so nicely designed the way that zip works at the top, and how it’s how it’s solving a problem. I haven’t quite got to it yet, but I must order some.Dan Harden 33:45I like those. I would agree that was probably my favorite in the bunch. I liked that you just answered with the person behind it first, is what interested you about that story.Mike Chapman 33:58Absolutely.Dan Harden 33:59And that’s one of the things about America by Design, California by Design other by designs, you get to meet the people behind the innovation.Dan Harden 34:06Yeah.Dan Harden 34:06That, just that just exposing that and celebrating those individuals that do this work, I think is one of the greatest contributions, your production team offers.Mike Chapman 34:19Thank you. Yes. That’s really good to hear you say because that’s what floats my boat the most is the people stories. Yes, a product drops out of it. And that’s interesting. But yeah, the people and the passion. And that is why by the way, we also utilize designers as our presenters, our facilitators to tell these stories. You know, we could have got some fancy TV people involved, you know, an ex weather guy who’s, you know, wants to, he’s gonna say it just perfectly but no, we’re more interested in the passion. And the end the knowledge that an actual designer like you, Dan, you know, you’ve presented some of our stories in the past that, you know, I’ll take a hit on the performance not with you, Dan, you’re brilliant.Dan Harden 35:13I don’t know that for sure.Mike Chapman 35:17I’ll take a hit on the performance, I’m more interested in the passion and the knowledge of design, because you bring a lot of insight into presenting those stories.Dan Harden 35:27I must say it’s not a natural thing for most of us, like me, you know that have to do this. Because when you’re staring into that huge glassy black lens, and you ask for, okay, generally speak about this. And that’s hard. I mean, for an actor, they do this all the time, bam, bam, bam, it’s out. But in my case, it was just like, Oh, my God, I gotta really concentrate on this story. And I’m used to sort of being in my head as a designer and drawing, and thinking, and creating and so forth. So it’s a different medium. For me, it was a really, it was a challenge.Mike Chapman 36:05In that pressure pressure cooker situation you came through. I remember saying at the end, I think there was some tension as they typically is, on our shoots, there was some tension about whether we were going to make a flight or not as well.Dan Harden 36:20Stresses were piled up, man.Mike Chapman 36:24And I remember you delivered it. And then what do I say? Tv gold? Perfect.Dan Harden 36:32So it was nerve wracking, but in the end, fun, I’m really glad that I’ve been a part of this show.Mike Chapman 36:39Oh, that’s good.Dan Harden 36:40Yeah. And I’m hoping that people are learning from it, increasing their awareness about design, ultimately, then talking about it. And I’m really curious to see how this is going to develop how you as a director will develop and how you will evolve this show, especially after you see the results from you know, season to season. Like, yeah, do you have any big visions about where you want to take this?Mike Chapman 37:07Now this happened. Not so much with California by design, but New York by design, I guess, is that New York magic? I don’t know. But suddenly, we were being approached by other countries. I guess New York’s kind of like Paris or kind of like London, I’m not sure. But suddenly, a whole bunch more people noticed the show and the format. And so we’ve actually had to put on somebody that whose job is just to start managing all these opportunities. And the UAE, Italy. Canada, you know, everybody’s talking to us now. So we’re in the process while trying to make a you know, our big break, which is trying to launch America by Design series. There’s all that going all that noise going on behind us as well. It’s welcomed, no doubt about it. And I just wonder how America by Design is going to go, how many more approaches? How many more levels of interest?Dan Harden 38:17So Mike, I can’t thank you enough for talking to me today. It’s time for you to finish that melted Margarita.Mike Chapman 38:26I know. Time for a second, I feel. Yeah. It’s a real pleasure, Dan, to talk with you. I mean, you were one of our early believers. In America, well, even before America, you know, you’re you’re a very big reason why we ended up taking the step, bringing this fall back to America. You helped me believe that it was worth doing. So and that’s certainly played out. It’s absolutely been worth doing. And it feels to me that we’re onwards and upwards. And hopefully you can keep, you know, playing with us. We love you as a judge. We love your comments. I’d like to get you back out on the field. If it doesn’t freak you out too much and do and present a few more stories? Because I do enjoy working with you.Dan Harden 39:21Yeah, the feeling’s mutual. So let’s go create more good TV.Dan Harden 39:27Absolutely.Mike Chapman 39:28Mike, thank you very, very much. And we’ll talk soon I look forward to seeing the new season. That’s that’s playing right now. Actually.Mike Chapman 39:37Yes, yeah. Go to Americabydesigntv.com. That’s where you can find out where it’s playing. And also actually a tip. You can you can watch the show on Americabydesigntv.com. So yes, it’s on CBS. But what we have on our website is an extended version. So we don’t have the the problems of, you know, the restraints of a CBS format. So we let the show breathe. The stories are longer, there’s more insights from the judges. So that’s actually quite a satisfying place to to watch the show.Dan Harden 40:16That’s excellent. That could be more interesting or get more insight as to what what went behind these creations. I hope you put a couple of my bloopers in there.Mike Chapman 40:27I’m very careful to protect your image.Dan Harden 40:35Alright, Mike good pleasure talking to you.Mike Chapman 40:39You bet. Thanks.Dan Harden 40:40Thank you for listening to prism, follow us on whipsaw.com or your favorite streaming platform. And we’ll be back with more thought provoking episodes soon.Unknown Speaker 40:50PRISM is hosted by Dan Harden, Principal designer and CEO of Whipsaw, produced by Gabrielle Whelan and Isabella Glenn, mix in sound design by Erik Buell. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.